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Post by Admin on Jan 3, 2014 12:28:15 GMT 7
HAHA Finally found a new one to practice Rules-Lawyering. Now, to make things interesting, here is a short resume about Versatile Performance, collected from Sean K Reynolds and James Jacobs (examples given are the same with their examples): a. You do not need to perform to use the skill b. You do not get the MW bonus (since MW Musical Instrument only works for performing, and you are not performing) c. You can gain benefit from conditions that normally apply (in example, Boots of Elvenkind + Versatile Dance for Acrobatics) d. You swap the whole bonus from the skill Questions: a. What about traits? b. What about Skill Focus and similar Feats? (in example, skill focus dance and skill focus acrobatics for versatile dance) c. What about Armor Check Penalty? Discuss!!  |
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Post by Norowas on Jan 3, 2014 15:20:31 GMT 7
...this is for...practice, right? May I join? (  )/ *mau ngerusuh doang* *plak* |
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Post by Admin on Jan 3, 2014 18:13:51 GMT 7
Everyone can join. Any method is permitted (like, quoting rules, throwing statements and FAQs, or simply logical discussions).
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Post by Norowas on Jan 3, 2014 23:01:13 GMT 7
Hoh! Alright then! I don't think I will quote anything for this time, I will just state my opinions...
So...first, for point (1), I've heard/read somewhere that the bonuses from traits are not stacking with other traits. For this case...I will breakdown the bonuses for the...let's say...Versatile Dance, and will named each bonus sources. So~ let's say a bard take Talented and Reckless Traits. Since both of them are came from the 'same' source, which is Trait, so I won't let them stack...at least in my game/campaign... (if I ever made one)
And then...for point (2), with the same reason, I won't let Skill Focus: Perform (Dance) and Skill Focus: Acrobatics to give a total +6 bonus (or +9/+12 bonus if the skill already reach 10 ranks) to the bard's Versatile Dance for Acrobatic check. Why? As I said before, when I break down the bonus sources, the bonus from these two feats will 'fill' the 'Skill Focus' slot. Hence, I won't let them stack...again, at least in my game/campaign... (if I ever made one)
But, how about feats such as...let's see...Acrobatic? For this one, I will let the bard to add the bonus from this feat to his/her Versatile Dance for Acrobatics or Fly checks, since they are a 'different' feat from Skill Focus, and they normally stacks with it.
However, the problem is when they reach rank 10 on the related Perform skill...I'm not sure which bonus that I should give them; the 10 rank version (+4) or the ordinary version (+2)? Since, the wording for Versatile Performance said the bard can use his/her Perform skill bonus to substitute the bonus for that skill checks, but it didn't say anything about they become 'trained equal to the perform skill rank' for the related skill.
And then, for the point (3)...
...
...so, a Bard with breastplate or...a full plate (yes, I know they are usually not proficient with those) can use their skill in dancing to do acrobatics maneuver without being hindered with those armor? As for me...it doesn't make sense...
So...yes, I will apply the armor's check penalty even when they use Versatile...Dance...though once again, at least in my game/campaign... (if I ever made one)
Oh, I want to add one more thing: with the exact same reason, I won't let the bonus from...let's see...Circlet of Persuasion stacks with Boots of Elvenkind for Versatile Dance in Acrobatics check, since, although they gave competence bonus for different skills, but competence bonus is competence bonus. Hence, they are overlapping each other =3=)b
By the way...it is somehow related to...the additional question at the end of my point (2):
Does a bard with...let's say...Versatile Sing can use his/her Perform (Sing) bonus to determine his/her feinting DC? And also the same one for Versatile Dance towards dodge bonus to AC for Total Defense and Fighting Defensively actions...will they got the +6/+3? Or still just +4/+2?
Anyway...those are just my opinions about the Versatile Performances, and perhaps none of them are even RAW. So, you may ignore my rant if you wish to =3=)b
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Post by Admin on Jan 4, 2014 0:35:47 GMT 7
Hoho, nice Norowas =w=d
Now waiting for another comment or two, before I will express some... things.
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Post by Admin on Jan 6, 2014 8:36:15 GMT 7
Hmmm, no other participants? Norowas: point1: Good point, since both are traits bonus, they do not stack. Have to agree here. point2: I understand. So basically, although the feat grant untyped bonus, and they have a different 'subtype', they are still 'the same feat' which is Skill Focus. And no, whatever happens, Versatile Perform-er do not get any benefit of the 'ranks'. That is for sure, since it does not replace the 'rank'. point3: Make sense, if bonuses apply then penalties apply. re-point2: As to obtain the bonus for Fighting Defensively you need a hard rank at acrobatics, so no. As for Feinting DC, I would say yes. Because to feint you 'make a bluff check', while VP can 'make a perform when you make a bluff check'. NOW.... Here comes the devil. Actually, if anyone searches carefully at the internet and FAQs and developers' pages, you can find that the statements from developers I quoted actually 'their opinion'. About RAW, you change your 'whole bonus' of one skill, with a 'whole bonus' from another skill. No cross-replace, no cross bonus, no cross penalty. Just a plain ones, with the exception that Masterwork Instruments do not help. So, for those with VP Dance, you can get the bonus from Circlet of Persuasion and Skill Focus Dance, but not a single drop of bonus (or penalty) from boots of elvenkind, Acrobatics, and check penalties. First you check your 'real whole skill modifier', and before you execute it, swap it with your 'real whole perform modifier' without Instruments. |
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Post by brutu on Jan 6, 2014 9:38:42 GMT 7
Well, from my viewpoint, versatile performance use the skill's total modifier to roll, that is, before the armor check penalty, skill focus, etc2.
For example:
4 acro 0 rank/4 dex/0 class/
9 Perform (Dance) 3 rank/3 cha/3 class
both the number above are called the total skill bonus (by me). Usually for acro, we use the +4 one, but if we use versatile, we use the +9.
Feats and items, said that they grant bonuses to the related skill check, so even though we use the perform, it is still an acro check, so skill focus and items apply to that performance check.
ACPenalty also affect the perform. This is mainly because, we were rolling for acro check, which is a DEX based check. We just use the perform's total skill modifier to roll.
..I think
<_<
>_>
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Post by Admin on Jan 6, 2014 19:13:28 GMT 7
brutu: Yeah, that was I thought as well; so that feat and item that grant bonus to one 'skill check' benefit from Versatile Performance, but not the original. Apparently the Devs already said that 'whole skill modifier for whole skill modifier'. >_> They said you can not 'double up' using Versatile Performance. Another case of bad wording?
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)/ *mau ngerusuh doang* *plak*
